Economists, Apologists and Sophists for Usury. Positive Money sells out to Bankers? Or Donald Wheres ya Trousers.


The first part of this so-called debunking of the desert island interest myth caught my eye as did a similar debunking by Steve Keen in Forbes. One of my touchstones of the critical faculties of any Heterodox or Radical ´´Progressive´´these days is to see if they are Sophists for Usury or Sophists for Anthropogenic climate change.Fill in your own No True Scotsman arguments to taste.No true Scotsman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman.
No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.[1][2] Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule (“no true Scotsman would do such a thing”; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).[3]


Bernard Lietaers fable of the 11th round adresses this question, I have wondered why Steve Keen and others seem so keen to pooh pooh this as a naive urban myth.
Usury is the Price of money, it is the metric of Economists, the high priests of Economics Woo.
What we see in Keen and Varafoukis is really at best a controlled opposition clinging to the social control mechanism that is debt based money. They all do it.
Prouhdon scotched the artifice in his dialogue with bastiat, and also as described by Kropotkin.
Story of the 11th Round.…
We can learn a lot from the Swiss referendum on Citizens Income as discussed here.
´However, the nearly universal misunderstanding of money is a major obstacle. For too long we’ve allowed a small coterie of bankers and “court economists” to hold the secrets and “tutor” us. So, it’s time for total openness.
First, regarding the claim that the Swiss proposal would’ve been too costly, what’s entirely omitted from the discussion is that the proposal (and similar proposals elsewhere) appear to call for re-distribution of existing money—taking money from certain sectors through taxation and re-allocating it to the people at-large.
The implication is that the money supply is basically static and that re-distributing limited funds would require tough budget decisions—sparking tax hikes and associated spending increases in several areas; hence the claim “costs too much.”
But a successful basic-income plan can and must be based on the creation of new money, or “distributism,” not on reshuffling existing money, which is “re-distributism.” That’s the “state secret” that no one wants to touch.
The issuance of new money needs to happen to overcome the huge “gap” between today’s paltry purchasing power and the massive mountain of debt and the towering totality of prices on all available goods and services. We have full stores and empty wallets. (Ideally and importantly, governments should reclaim their interest-free money-creation rights and forbid private central banks from creating money any longer).´´
This is for me the nub of the matter something I have in common with Joseph Prouhdon, explained by Peter Kropotkin in the Encyclopedia Britannica thus.…
”Now Proudhon advocated a society without government, and
used the word Anarchy to describe it. Proudhon repudiated,
as is known, all schemes of Communism, according to which
mankind would be driven into communistic monasteries or
barracks, as also all the schemes of state or state-aided Socialism
which were advocated by Louis Blanc and the Collectivists. When
he proclaimed in his first memoir on property that ” Property
is theft,” he meant only property in its present, Roman-law,
sense of ” right of use and abuse ” ; in property-rights, on the other
hand, understood in the limited sense of possession, he saw the
best protection against the encroachments of the state. At the
same time he did not want violently to dispossess the present
owners of land, dwelling-houses, mines, factories and so on. He
preferred to attain the same end by rendering capital incapable
of earning interest; and this he proposed to obtain by means of
a national bank, based on the mutual confidence of all those who
are engaged in production, who would agree to exchange among
themselves their produces at cost-value, by means of labour
cheques representing the hours of labour required to produce
every given commodity. Under such a system, which Proudhon
described as ” Mutuellisme,” all the exchanges of services would be
strictly equivalent. Besides, such a bank would be enabled to
lend money without interest, levying only something like 1 %,
or even less, for covering the cost of administration. Every one
being thus enabled to borrow the money that would be required
to buy a house, nobody would agree to pay any more a yearly
rent for the use of it. A general ” social liquidation ” would
thus be rendered easy, without violent expropriation. The same
applied to mines, railways, factories and so on. ”
Such is, substantially, Socialism’s theory of Capital and Interest.
Not only do we affirm, in accordance with this theory (which, by the way, we hold in common with the economists) and on the strength of our belief in Industrial development, that such is the tendency and the import of lending at Interest; we even prove, by the destructive results of economy as it is, and by a demonstration of the causes of poverty, that this tendency is necessary, and the annihilation of Usury inevitable.
In fact, Rent, reward of Capital, Interest on Money, in one word, Usury, constituting, as has been said, an integral part of the price of products, and this Usury not being the same for all, it follows that the price of products, composed as it is of Wages and Interest, cannot be paid by those who have only their Wages, and no Interest to pay it with; so that, by the existence of Usury,
Labor is Condemned to Idleness and Capital to Bankruptcy.
This argument, one of that class which mathematicians call the reductio ad absurdum, showing the organic impossibility of lending at Interest, has been repeated a hundred times by Socialism. Why do not the economists notice it?
Do you really wish to refute the ideas of Socialism on the question of Interest? Listen, then, to the questions which you must answer: –
1. Is it true that, though the loaning of Capital, when viewed objectively, is a service which has its value, and which consequently should be paid for, this loaning, when viewed subjectively, does not involve an actual sacrifice on the part of the Capitalist; and consequently that it does not establish the right to set a price on it?
2. Is it true that Usury, to be unobjectionable, must be equal; that the tendency of Society is towards this equalization; so that Usury will be entirely legitimate only when it has become equal for all, – that is, nonexistent?
3. Is it true that a National Bank, giving Credit and Discount gratis, is a possible institution?
4. Is it true that the effects of the gratuity of Credit and Discount, as well as that of Taxation when simplified and restored to its true form, would be the abolition of Rent of Real Estate, as well as of Interest on Money?
5. Is it true that the old system is a contradiction and a mathematical impossibility?
6. Is it true that Political Economy, after having, for several thousand years, opposed the view of Usury held by theology, philosophy, and legislation, comes, by the application of its own principles, to the same conclusion?
7. Is it true, finally, that Usury has been, as a providential institution, simply an instrument of equality and progress, just as, in the Political sphere, absolute monarchy was an instrument of liberty and progress, and as, in the Judicial sphere, the boiling-water test, the duel, and the rack were, in their turn, instruments of conviction and progress?
These are the points that our opponents are bound to examine before charging us with scientific and intellectual weakness; these, Monsieur Bastiat, are the points on which your future arguments must turn, if you wish them to produce a definite result. The question is stated clearly and categorically: permit us to believe that, after having examined it, you will perceive that there is something in the Socialism of the nineteenth century that is beyond the reach of your antiquated Political Economy.
Quite !…
Steve Keen tried this already in his Forbes article the reality nheld up against Keens own beautiful theory is amply scothced in the comments.…



All Risk No Reward 2 years ago
Yes, the money flows, BUT NOT TO THE MAIN STREET DEBTORS IN AMOUNTS THAT MAKE THEIR DEBTS PAYABLE. Therefore, the choice is to exponentially grow the debt until the exponential debt-money growth implodes on its own or allow Main Street to implode sooner because there simply is not enough money available to Main Street in order to pay their debts.
That concept isn’t complex, rather it is extremely simple.
There is absolutely a positive net annual income flow into the Debt Money Monopoly Corporate Borg System and away from Mr. and Mrs. Main Street… and that annual income flow represents INEXTINGUISHABLE DEBT TO MAIN STREET CITIZENS…
The complexity you inject into your examples actually works to obfuscate the simple truths behind debt-money systems. It really isn’t complicated.
Two comments of note on the Keen article, also good to see others here are equally tunes into the Usury problem.






Test Comment for Zack


The mechanism for the accelerated growth of indebtedness and corresponding monetary assets – a veritable infernal machine – is described in full detail in “The Money Syndrome” by Helmut Creutz.
The following graph is taken from the book “The Money Syndrome“. It shows the market participants divided into 10 groups according to their disposable income and the amount they are using for consumption per year (the green columns). The orange columns indicate the interest payments hidden in consumer prices and the blue columns show average interest returns that the members of the respective groups receive from owning an interest bearing asset.

redistribution mechanism
The following graph is an extraction of the above figure and shows the balance of interest payments and interest yields. The balance of group 9 is almost even. The members of this group own interest bearing assets worth at least 450,000 euros, which yield as much interest returns as they pay while annually spending 50,000 euros for consumption. All lower groups have smaller assets the returns from which don’t suffice to compensate for the losses in consumption. Therefore, their balance is negative. Only group 10 has a positive balance and collects what the majority of market participants (groups 1 to 9) lose in this game. The growing gap between rich and poor is often referred to in the public discussion, but no one ever asks how it is caused. At any rate, primarily the creditors in group 10 should be asked to contribute to the emergency parachute for Greece, because they are the winners in the game.

The whole premise of the article seems wracked with the same sophistry that we see in Jeremy Benthams , A defense of Usury. Why is PM bothering itself as an apologisdt and sophist for Usury?
Benthamns Defense of usury is flawed in that it misunderstands the Debt aspects of Money creation, which was not as bad then as it is now but was still a system being pedalled by the infamous John Law in France.………
Where is the Debate about reforming money for England Wales and Ireland freeing people from the yoke of Debt!





interest balance
This system of compound interest is the basic mechanism for redistributing wealth from the poor to the rich. Mathematically, compound interest is an exponential function, which inexorably leads to a crash of the financial system. Nothing can be done to prevent this crash.


An old PM blog from 2012 that attempts to illustrate the pernicious nature of our commercially issued, debt-based money system, using the maligned “desert island economy” thought experiment. There is no mention of the “is there enough money to pay all the interest” red herring. The real danger is shown to be the accumulation of power and control by the banker who takes over from the people the function of money creation.…






First of all I’d like to point out that a Positive Money-system probably would not have these problems at all. This discussion and criticism is only about the current system. Still I’m worried that PM would put itself at the same side as Steve Keen in this matter!
The way I heard it (by talking to bank employees), private banks do NOT let their income disappear in some theoretical increase of their equity caused only by decreasing liabilities. What happens in reality is that banks buy government bonds for the money they receive, as fast as they could, simply to get someone else to pay interest on their earned money. This seems to me quite logically. In the past, banks deposited their surplus in a competing bank, nowadays they buy bonds.
So the money paid in as interest is treated as an asset after all. An asset which requires compound interest.
I’ve often wondered what people mean by “interest per se”. In a private banking system there is only compound interest. Interest is just a name, or a number showing the growth of the exponential function after a year. Compound interest is what really exists, it is the process that is actually working, day after day. So in order to find the root of the imperative we have the look at the compound interest from all aspects, and specially the compound interest on the hoarder’s deposits, and we have to keep in mind that there is almost no way for money to be interest- free in the current system.
Example: 10 people and 1000 silver coins on a desert island. They have 100 coins each. Someone comes up with the great idea that they should start a bank, because then everyone would be promised 2% interest on their deposits, and they will all get richer…
What will happen?
My answer: The system might seem to work for a short while, as long as borrowers work hard to pay everybody’s interest on deposits, including their own. But not in the long run. You can’t race against an exponential function and expect to win.The group will soon face a lack of ideas, new branches and borrowers. The circulation velocity slows down again, and they will end up with a zero interest rate on deposits, or close to zero, and now with less available money because of those greedy mr A, mr B and mrs C, who have been hoarding all their interest money all the time.
As we (hopefully) can see from this example, hoarding isn’t the only reason for the imperative to emerge. Hoarding make the situation worse, but the primary crazyness is the bank’s promise to make every single deposit grow exponentially over time and simultaneously pretending that such a system could actually work with a constant (non-growing) money supply.






Remember, interest is paid out of deposits but it arises because of the level of outstanding loans. If banks allow deposits to dwindle to nothing by not returning the interest back into the economy through spending on current goods and services, so that their source of interest income dries up, they can indeed restore things by creating new deposits. In the absence of current spending by banks, this can be done through extending new loans or buying existing securities, but that does not involve spending the hoarded interest: the level of equity does not fall, as it would with current spending. Interest received is not an asset for banks since it does not accumulate as cash on the asset side of the balance sheet as for all other institutions.




Thanks for answering Graham, but you know perfectly well that cash isn’t the only item on the asset side of the bank’s balance sheet.



The Other Day in Stockholm, Last Night In Sweden, Hot air and other Gases. Is Löven Swedens Tony Blair?

SWEDEN — SAPO: “Foreign Powers are trying to influence elections”


This is an interesting Article. I have encountered other reports from both the United States and the United Kingdom which discuss the Moslem Brotherhood.
One way of looking at the Moslem Brotherhood is as a Political Think Tank not dissimilar to other Globalist Think Tanks whose aims are to promote Globalism and neo-liberal economic goals.
Although called the Moslem Brotherhood and broadly positioned as Islamic it is more precisely Islamist in a political sense and not a religious sense. Islamism as a political and Globalist phenomenon is not dissimilar to Zionism.
Zionism is a Political movement and not Religous one when one considers it in a wider political context.
Neo-Liberal Globalism works through Think Tanks and pressure groups and is woven into the Fabric of the Washington Aligned Global Establishment there are other ideologically based secular groups which identify with a secular and homogenised end goal, such as Common Purpose or at a higher level of the hierarchy Rhodes Scholarships or the Erasmus exchange programmes.
The current move against Globalism to De Globalisation represented by the election of President Donald Trump and the Brexit vote and so-called Populist movements is a kick back against the dilution of culture.
Very persuasive but leaves out a crucial piece of analysis. That analysis relates to the End Games for various political factions in The Syria Conflict. No Article on Syria or the Middle East and North Africa can be offered in a sensible context without at least passing mention in the lede in, to Petro Dollar Hegemony and The Export of Natural Gas via the competing Gas Pipe Line infrastructure projects.It is interesting that Mc Master wrote a book revealing the mangling and distortion of intelligence regarding the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
Reply Is Löven Swedens Tony Blair.
Very persuasive but leaves out a crucial piece of analysis. That analysis relates to the End Games for various political factions in The Syria Conflict. No Article on Syria or the Middle East and North Africa can be offered in a sensible context without at least passing mention in the lede in, to Petro Dollar Hegemony and The Export of Natural Gas via the competing Gas Pipe Line infrastructure projects.It is interesting that Mc Master wrote a book revealing the mangling and distortion of intelligence regarding the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
“”It is becoming more and more obvious that foreign powers are trying to influence elections around the world. Sweden is not immune. We can note there are influence operations against Sweden and we expect such operations, aimed at next year’s election.”
Prime Minister Stefan Lofven
 Anders Thornberg — Head of Sweden Security Services (SAPO)
The Head of SAPO — Sweden’s domestic intelligence agency — has warned the Swedish government and opposition members about “the importance of security and safety measures” ahead of next year’s parliamentary elections. Follow us on Twitter: @INTEL_TODAY
View original post 254 more words

Wag The Dog, Greater Israel, Zionism and its Flatulence. Did Netenjahu Just Fart.


Did Israel just Fart?
WHo´s Got Gas?


This article Is Very persuasive but leaves out a crucial piece of analysis. That analysis relates to the End Games for various political factions in The Syria Conflict. No Article on Syria or the Middle East and North Africa can be offered in a sensible context without at least passing mention in the lede in, to Petro Dollar Hegemony and The Export of Natural Gas via the competing Gas Pipe Line infrastructure projects.It is interesting that Mc Master wrote a book revealing the mangling and distortion of intelligence regarding the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.

H. R. McMaster

Dereliction of Duty (book)[edit]
Main article: Dereliction of Duty (1997 book)
Dereliction of Duty: Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies that Led to Vietnam is a book written by McMaster that explores the military’s role in the policies of the Vietnam War.
It is both tragic and farcical that he now stands accused of the same subterfuge.
The issue of President Kushner lurks large in the shadow of all of this and the Wurmsley Plan / Planned Greater Israel. Shades of Wesley Clarke…etc.

Syria is all about Gas, not poison Sarin Gas but Gas Pipelines. It is also not about Hydro Carbons in themselves but the market for hydrocarbons and which currency contracts of supply are settled in otherwise known as, US petrodollar hegemony.
Legitimate question. Does Jared Kushner have any interests in the Leviathan Gas field or any of the Israeli-backed Pipeline projects? #MAGA#Drain The Swamp. Starting to dig around will report back.
President Trump is surrounded by Neo-Cons and sadly ´´President Kushner´´,  is a New York Liberal and Clinton sock puppet, How do those of us who wished to see President trump implement his #MAGA agenda reclaim the initiative for President Trump?
President Trump is a smart man and I believe a sincere and good-hearted man, He is clearly a good and capable organiser. A government is about the loyalty of one’s lieutenant’s and with Ryan, Priebus and a host of Goldman Sachs and Bushite Neo-Cons forced into the fold by the Apparatus of bureaucratic stay behind government (COG) we see that President Trump needs more than ever, a Washington insider he can trust. Rand Paul springs to mind and of course, we see that President Trump has been reaching out to his base, Golfing with Rand Paul recently..

I think we must defend President Trumps presidency and his Authority, the Travel Ban needs to be enforced and the Wall must be built, The Federal Reserve must have its wings cut and its Quantitative easing Powers should be commandeered or rather re-claimed as Andrew Jackson once reclaimed power from the Second Bank of the USA.


Bank veto and election of 1832[edit]

Further information: Bank War and Banking in the Jacksonian Era

1833 Democratic cartoon shows Jackson destroying the Devil’s bank.

In 1816 the Second Bank of the United States was chartered by President James Madison to restore the United States economy devastated by the War of 1812.[107] In 1823 President James Monroe appointed Nicholas Biddle, the Bank’s third and last executive, to run the bank. In January 1832, Biddle, on advice from his friends, submitted to Congress a renewal of the Bank’s charter four years before the original 20-year charter was to end.[108] Biddle’s recharter bill passed the Senate on June 11 and the House on July 3, 1832. Jackson, believing that Bank was fundamentally a corrupt monopoly whose stock was mostly held by foreigners, vetoed the bill. Jackson used the issue to promote his democratic values, believing the Bank was being run exclusively for the wealthy. Jackson stated the Bank made “the rich richer and the potent more powerful”.[108] The National Republican Party immediately made Jackson’s veto of the Bank a political issue, attempting to undermine Jackson’s popularity.[109] Jackson’s political opponents castigated Jackson’s veto as “the very slang of the leveller and demagogue”, claiming Jackson was using class warfare to gain support from the common man.[108]
During the 1832 presidential election the rechartering of the Second National Bank became the primary issue. The election also demonstrated the rapid development and organization of political parties during this time period. The Democratic Party’s first national convention, held in Baltimore, nominated Jackson’s choice for vice president, Van Buren. The National Republican Party, who had held their first convention in Baltimore earlier in December 1831, nominated Henry Clay, senator from Kentucky and former Speaker of the House, and John Sergeant of Pennsylvania.[108] The Anti-Masonic Party, which had earlier held its convention also in Baltimore in September 1831, nominated William Wirt of Maryland and Amos Elmaker of Pennsylvania; both Jackson and Clay were Masons.[109] The two rival parties, however, proved to be no match for Jackson’s popularity and the Democratic Party’s strong political networks known as Hickory Clubs in state and local organization. Democratic newspapers, parades, barbecues, and rallies increased Jackson’s popularity. Jackson himself made numerous popular public appearances on his return trip from Tennessee to Washington D.C. Jackson won the election decisively by a landslide, receiving 55 percent of the popular vote and 219 electoral votes. Clay received 37 percent of the popular vote and 49 electoral votes. Wirt received only eight percent of the popular vote and seven electoral votes while the Anti-Masonic Party folded.[110] Jackson believed the solid victory was a popular mandate for his veto of the Bank’s recharter and his continued warfare on the Bank’s control over the national economy.[111]

President Trump is under attack from all sides at home and abroad. Those of us that Cherish Liberty and want to see America Great and free of Globalist Fascism and Neo-Liberalism need to Let President Trump know that his Cavalry is Strong and Massed ready for knocking down false narratives and loyal to #MAGA.

The Layest Syrian Agit/Prop is probably of Sen. John Mc Cains Design, ( he must be impeached).
What now for President Trump? Sadly I suspect he is progressing The Greater Israel Plan, and I must conclude that for all of President Trumps benefits for #MAGA in the USA, his foreign policy radar is defective and Team America world policeman is not a good look.





The most profound thing I think I have ever read is a short question posed in Neal Donald Walsh’s, Conversations with God. ´´What would love do now?´´.

At all breaking points in life there is one question to ask: what would love do now?
Love is not to retain the best of the other – but the best of your self.


David Cooper
David Cooper Roger in all maps published by Israel – there is no Palestine – no Palestine – I would guess that 15,000 jews are immigrating to Israel each month – as a rough guess – they need homes – so they bulldoze Arab villages to make way for more Jewish settlements – and to create the greater state of israel. Palestinians are held in a prison unable to repair their homes – no effective water or sewage – no transportation and most if not all can not escape the horrors of every day life – does this ring a bell with the nazis??? The jews are the new nazis of the world. It is not a fiction – not a lie not an untruth or fake news – the jews of israel are the new nazis – and friends of jews support their policy. I have never supported the state of israel – it is an evil that should be destroyed before it destroy the Middle East and destroys any sense of democracy and real freedom we have at home. jews are not peace loving – they are hated by every Arab Nation – and we get hated too for supporting their global terrorist activities- they all elieve they are god’s chosen people – fact reality – Aliyah is the immigration of Jews from the diaspora to the Land of Israel (Eretz israel in Hebrew) … Many religious Jews espouse aliyah as a return to the Promised land, and regard it as the fulfilment of god’s biblical promise and all jews should be kicked out of the labour Party. jews do not support democracy – jews do not support socialism – jews do not support a secular state. This is real facts. Why jew lovers support jews is beytound my comprehension 🙂 Must all be fucking stupid 🙂


Roger Lewis
Roger Lewis David, I am a Christian Myself and embrace my Jewish and Moslem Brothers and sisters. The State of Israel is not religious it is political as is the State as a power structure everywhere so I reject Zionism, Islamism, Socialism, Ism in general including Nazism is not pretty. SO David, whilst I fight the crimes of the state of Israel and the crimes of Zionist Zealots I equally reject say ISISL/ISIS but also Crimes of the USA State and The British State and the Swedish State where I live. Collapsing it into a simple binary black and white hat pantomime is not any way of understanding and then fixing the problem. Statism, Judaism, Zionism, Islamism and Calvinism, Puritanism, Catholicism all isms as I say are dogmatic by nature. Funny isn´t it how there is no Lovism, there is Agapism I suppose.
Love and Peace and Solidarity with the Innocents caught up in these vile power plays inflicted on decent folk whatever their Creed or colour.


David Cooper
David Cooper Roger Lewis I am not a christian etc… and do not recognise that these people are my brothers and sisters. Why align oneself with deluded people?? Nation States have always engaged in war – their own greed or to protect their integrity – just as people demonstrate opposing some action or deed. You are a christian? Rejecting all beliefs other than your own?? Hahaha! I find that equally delusional 🙂


Roger Lewis
Roger Lewis David Cooper David, I do not reject any Views or identify with any Brand of Religion or State. Humanity is a species as such all Humans are our brothers and sisters, They do say God Gave us our relatives thank god we can choose our friends. Being a Christian for me is a cultural identity and a tradition of which I find certainty in some reference points as oscar Wilde noted Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.…/reality…


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